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No Longer Illegal To Set Up Temporary Abodes In Canadian Municipal Parks
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DAJ
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No Longer Illegal To Set Up Temporary Abodes In Canadian Municipal Parks

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I'm sleeping in a tent-city tonight. Being a Constitutional case every municipality in Canada that has similar sentimented Bylaws will also have to follow suit.

BC Supreme Court Justice Ross states, "... In these circumstances I have concluded that the course that is most appropriate is to grant a declaration that the Bylaws are of no force and effect insofar as they apply to prevent homeless people from erecting temporary shelter."... and, "Here the concern is overbreadth of the provisions and no danger to the public has been identified resulting from an immediate declaration. I have concluded that this is not an appropriate case to suspend the declaration of invalidity."

People are meeting at the Courthouse back lawn at noon (in three minutes). From there I intend to go to where I will set up a tent and invite others to initiate a tent-city. One of many that will be in Victoria and the rest of Canada.

I love you all. This is the hugest thing...

David Arthur Johnston

Victoria, BC, Canada

Hatrackman@Gmail.com

Home page- http://www.angelfire.com/apes/hatrackman

Journal of the Occupation of St. Ann's Academy (Victoria, BC, Canada)- http://www.angelfire.com/apes/hatrackman/welcome.htm

Crimes of Necessity- http://www.loveandfearlessness.com (from filmmaker Andrew Ainsley. Very comprehensive.) - Tue, 14 Oct 2008 12:04pm
Mr. Hell
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What's the judge's name? You should set up the tent city really close to his or her house seeing as this judge seems to embrace your Dirt Farm.
I foresee much clashing over this. The judge didn't touch on sanitation by-laws I am assuming.
You will be shut down. That is a given. - Tue, 14 Oct 2008 12:47pm
inhalien
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Just in case you cannot read and comprehend David, the judgement states in part that...

"...in the absence of sufficient safe and secure beds for the homeless, it was unconstitutional for the city to prevent them from erecting some form of overhead shelter to protect themselves from the elements."

So IF all the beds in Greater Victoria are full, including free shelters, as a last resort, not a first, you are temporarily allowed to set up a tent. This doesn't include digging holes to crap in, erecting tents and tarps for long-term stay as they will be short.

So...enjoy your temporary stay in one of our lovely parks that I help pay for, until you can get a job and get an apartment like the rest of us. If that is not possible for you to do, it is certainly not possible for an able bodied person to demand to tent-it-out for a long period of time for free in one of our parks. - Tue, 14 Oct 2008 1:14pm
BBJones
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I feel the sale of the century coming up!

All parks and greenspace in the downtown core simply need be sold to become private and this issue is over. Or enforce a fee and permit to sleep outside. Etc... etc...

I'm sure there are many other solutions to prevent this nonsense that were merely waiting for the ruling to come in before taking affect.

Can't wait to see how this turns out! - Tue, 14 Oct 2008 1:21pm
Bounce
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http://www.canada.com/victoriatimescolonist/index.html


BULLSHIT...hope this Judge realizes what a shithole Beacon Hill Park is going to look like now ...what a fucking joke...this is MY neighborhood...I’m really fucking choked...you can bet that like the one I saw sleeping there the other day, I’m going to be as noisy as humanly possible, you disturb my pleasant enjoyment of a park I’m going to disturb your lazy ass day naps!...I will get as many people together as possible to make as much noise as we can until you move the fuck away from my home!!!!!!!! - Tue, 14 Oct 2008 2:10pm Edited: Tue, 14 Oct 2008 2:19pm
Zedius
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That guy in that picture there was also busted for refusing to leave the spencer road interchange tree sit. Huh. - Tue, 14 Oct 2008 2:45pm
J. Peatman
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Great, this will create an even bigger influx of scumbags into this town. Good thing we're full on heading into the rainy season. Hopefully, every time the City needs to get landscapers or caretakers to tend to the park lawns and bush, this will force DAJ and his scumbags to pack up and move elsewhere. Shouldn't be a problem with "temporary abodes", right?

I haven't read the ruling, does anyone know what the court's definition of "temporary" is? - Tue, 14 Oct 2008 4:05pm
canon.docre
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wholy fuck you're duuuuuuuumb. ceasing to write tickets to homeless people for being homeless isn't going to create a tidal wave of transients leaving their homes and setting up shop in your parks. These people are ALREADY sleeping in your parks, guys. This way we just don't look like a bunch of assclowns, issueing TICKETS to people who are homeless .. for being homeless. are you really that fucking stupid? not to mention the logical missfire that currently exists in your brain; if someone has no where to sleep, where should they go exactly? most people who are homeless are only temporarily so. those who aren't, perhaps you should think about discontinuing to marginalize them by kicking them to wake up and move a couple of blocks all night. this is up there on my list of unnecessary cruelty towards your fellow man. or I forgot, am I dealing with a bunch of nihlists and class elitists who think that once people reach a certain level of poverty, despair, and dysfunction, we should turn our backs on them; that they somehow become no longer human? if that's the case, fuck off. you're a worse piece of shit than the people you wish you could sweep under the rug. - Tue, 14 Oct 2008 5:10pm Edited: Tue, 14 Oct 2008 5:11pm
Spinvis
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Alot of these people are addicted to drugs, and what are you doing to help them?? Maybe if you worked for the city of Victoria and had to deal with their mess every morning, you would have a different view.

I think most of them are a bunch of lazy morons. - Tue, 14 Oct 2008 5:32pm
KRIEG
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Canon.docre; Bleeding hearts like you aught invite these lazy, drug addicted pieces of human garbage to YOUR HOUSE. YOUR BACKYARD. Or is that too real for ya? Easier to whine about what others should do to help the "less fortunate" than actually offer a hand, eh???
Fuck off. - Tue, 14 Oct 2008 5:35pm
canon.docre
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I've had drug-addicted people in my house, and my backyard. Some of these people were my friends. Some of these people were my family, and I don't fucking forget it when I see less fortunate people on the streets. KRIEG, go fuck yourself. Spinvis, you're the last person I thought was going to jump on the "people with problems are morons" dogpile. I guess if you've never been there you don't give a shit. - Tue, 14 Oct 2008 8:45pm
canon.docre
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and I didn't even say HELP these people. I just said don't get all fucking bent out of joint if you see a person sleeping in the park. I know how inconvenient and hard it must be for you to look at a homeless person. Man you guys got it rough. Better complain about having to look at a homeless person, or a mess. That's pretty tough. - Tue, 14 Oct 2008 8:50pm
Mr. Hell
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Hey, Knee-Jerk.
The issue here is DAJ setting up a tent city in a public park. You can't be so naive to not see that doing this would create a huge sanitation and health problem, not only for the inhabitants, but for the public (including children who may not know any better and may fall into a pile of human shit or needles) and those who are charged with cleaning up the mess.
In fact, you and anyone else who thinks these unfortunate souls should be allowed their temporary shelters without strict regulations *AT THE VERY LEAST* should be made to clean up the mess.
Your tune will change, believe me.
If I can't throw garbage out my windows into the street, why should Joe Homeless get to create piles of landfill in parks? - Tue, 14 Oct 2008 9:30pm
DOOMHAMMER
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Living in a concrete jungle where people are working minimum wage, buying their meals at mcdonalds and coffee at starbucks four times a day, and you actually have the thought that some people with problems sleeping in a park is going to make this beautiful community / city go downhill?

Yes the huge problems of sanitation! They should be dumping their crap in the ocean with the rest of us, out of sight, out of mind!

"If I cant throw my garbage out my windows into the street, why should Joe Homeless get to create piles of landfills in parks?"

We're not all equal, some people have limitations and problems of which you obviously do not. Feel free to compare yourself to addicts, mentally handicapped, and all the other transients and whatever else it is you feel a part of (but superior to). Our government does not support or give these people the help they need to get better, and all of us board warrior mightier than thou personalities sure as fuck dont either.

Im sure you all are also the same people that think safe injection sites help people get more addicted, and dope is a gateway drug.

You know, if they do develop and create a revolving tent city like seattle where they dont stay in an area longer than two weeks, and where they've been taught to clean their own shit up it would probably be a good thing. Those shelters are a lot worse in some cases then sleeping in some doorway where anyone can do shit to you.

As much as I disagree with DAJ's loony rants and calling people goofs, I disagree with pseudo cultural experts with all the facts spewing shit out 4x as much more. - Tue, 14 Oct 2008 10:05pm
Hearse
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Congrats to DAJ in that when I heard the news, I immediately thought what a shit-hot topic it would be here on LiveVic and of course, at tea time on the bowling green.

Also FYI, folks announcing illegal intentions might want to think twice about actually carrying them out. I mean, that's the kinda thing I read about in the Stupid Criminals columns.

Dig? - Tue, 14 Oct 2008 10:26pm Edited: Tue, 14 Oct 2008 10:27pm
Hearse
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PS: Do NOT do an image search for "children who may not know any better and may fall into a pile of human shit or needles" if you know what's good for you. - Tue, 14 Oct 2008 10:30pm Edited: Tue, 14 Oct 2008 10:31pm
Spinvis
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some of us just have different views. most of the time discussing things on live vic just opens up a can of worms.

goodluck to DAJ and his journey. - Wed, 15 Oct 2008 7:12am
Mr. Hell
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Actually, I support safe injection sites and do realize that they get junkies in a place where they are more likely to receive treatment and less likely to cause themselves harm. But MOST importantly, less likely to cause others harm.
It's not that I don't want to see these people in all their misery and suffering, but I don't think people who aren't in that boat should be subjected to the dangers of stepping on used syringes and the like.
I do agree that these people have been let down by out government. Hell, my uncle is a paranoid schizophrenic fellow and lives in Gorge Park under a tree. He refuses help. It makes me angry that he is in that position and I have no love for our government. When I see him, I try to help him, but he doesn't even know who I am anymore.
So, I do have some first hand dealings in the homeless realm. Don't think I am sitting here on my golden castle eating golden Corn Pops in gold flaked milk looking down at these homeless souls wishing them death.
And I DO support a tent city in a field in an area that is NOT downtown or the suburbs near a school. I support one that is supervised, self sufficient and policed and funded.
I have said that in past DAJ posts.
So save your rant for someone who disagrees with you more than I do.

Oh, and yes I do think we are all subject to littering laws even if we are fully employed or are living under a tarp. Special treatment is not something I think will help anyone. - Wed, 15 Oct 2008 7:37am
DOOMHAMMER
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Well if your uncle is a paranoid schiz, im sure you know how hard it would be to detail out the litter laws to him and get him to understand.

Regardless, having people make a tent city downtown is the first step in actually getting lawmakers / officials see a problem that needs fixing rather than ignore it.

While I will agree that having people shit on the sidewalks / shoot up in doorways / harrassing chicks as they walk by / etc. are all not ideal situations, and something people shouldnt have to deal with I also think that you will have to deal with some crap before things actually get better.

So, being someone that says they both know and understand the problems faced by the homeless in need, what would be your better solution? - Wed, 15 Oct 2008 11:09am
Jl
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" I also think that you will have to deal with some crap before things actually get better."

and you dont think we've already put up with enough crap? Enabling the homeless to sleep in our parks, granted if ALL the shelters are full, is ludacris. Whats next? If they cant find food; we hand feed them? Day in and day out it seems like the homeless problem is becoming more similar to a relationship like parents and children. Society being the parent and the homeless being children. While I could not offer a viable solution aside from letting the idiots freeze; I can still exercise my right to disagree with the ruling set yesturday. For those who want to, and have the motivation to, get off the streets are generally gunna be motivated enough to get a bed for the night. Where-as the homeless people I encounter, for some odd reason at night, sit on the street side begging for change and when you cant produce they lambast you for not helping them out. Well, chances are Im spending my money on similar things(beers etc) but at least I earned my right to spend my money as I choose. Call me selfish call me anything you want; its not making me change my point of view on the unmotivated idiotic childish stink palms of society. We as a society have to stop being the enabler!!!!!! - Wed, 15 Oct 2008 12:05pm
Bounce
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"Also FYI, folks announcing illegal intentions might want to think twice about actually carrying them out. I mean, that's the kinda thing I read about in the Stupid Criminals columns.

Dig? -"

what Illigal stuff? I missed it... - Wed, 15 Oct 2008 12:08pm
BBJones
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This solves all the problems with our addicts. With them gone, there should be plenty of "services" left for the people who truly need it.

http://www.sanpatrignano.org/?q=en

And yes, Canadians go to this program. The cost of funding our junkie's plane tickets is about 1/10th the cost of them living in our city each year, and is obviously a one-time fee.

Why "we" continue to limp along trying to solve this ourselves, when there are proven programs out there, is well beyond my ability to comprehend. - Wed, 15 Oct 2008 12:08pm Edited: Wed, 15 Oct 2008 12:10pm
J. Peatman
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The influx of scumbags I am referring to are homeless from other areas who come here to set up their tents because now they can freely. DAJ created a legal precedent, tent cities might spring up all over Canada in the next few years, but for the time being I can just see them flock to Victoria right before the winter. Funny how the pc crusaders prefer to call them "transients", I wonder how transient many of these people actually choose to be. Oh wait, there is no choice, only fate is real.

I've cleaned up enough homeless shit, needles, nasty clothes and cardboard at work locations to have seen a degree of the problem up close. Dealt with enough of them fine "transients" too. It makes me not care a single bit about what their personal issue is because the outcome is usually the same. They don't give a fuck about me, I shouldn't have to give a fuck about them, just because I happen to have a roof over my head.

I thought it was blatantly obvious which exact issues we have expressed concern about over the last few months, instead we're getting harassed again over "sweeping "transients" under the carpet", etc etc.

THIS is what is VERY LIKELY going to happen:

-The "temporary" nature of tent cities will turn into something more semi-permanent. Eventually, DAJ will start up another court case to change the definition of "temporary".

-An obvious loss of public space will occur. Where will the "non-transients" safely recreate when the homeless seize much of the parks?

-There are going to be massive issues with sanitation in and around the tent cities. I have asked DAJ REPEATEDLY what his sanitation plan is, but he has yet to come up with an answer.

-When the tent cities DO move on, a filthy and hazardous
mess will be left behind, to be cleaned up by the city, and indirectly the tax payers. Just look at the lawn behind the court house, where the hip street kids and homeless congregate during the day. And that's without anyone even pitching a tent there. As a general rule, many of the homeless DO NOT CARE to clean up. Like Mr. Hell said, the littering laws apply to everyone.

-Victoria will become less attractive to tourists, which means a loss of important revenue for this city. This means that even more people will have to work at minimum wages and go to McDonalds for dinner. Starbucks will be less popular though, given their prices.

{and seriously Doomhammer, whatever you think of the state of this city, do you think tent cities would improve anything? I'd also like to know if you have a better plan for sewage than to flush it into the ocean. Until then, it still is a better alternative than to shit in businesses' doorways and around playgrounds}

-The living conditions in and around some tent cities will be appalling, complaints from the public about health and safety will pour in to the point where either the police or a posse of citizens will kick the "transients" out. DAJ in and out of jail, declared a martyr, Doomhammer and Canon Docre whining about injustices on LiveVic, and $15,000 in tax money down the drain (and into the oceans) to clean up the parks.

Yeah, this whole thing is a fucking brilliant idea to have within city limits!

By the way, I am fine with needle exchanges and homeless shelters away from the downtown core. Dope is only a gateway drug to Amsterdam, NL. I guess generalization comes from both angles here. - Wed, 15 Oct 2008 12:37pm
J. Peatman
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Oh, and Scott can be quite a jerk. But that's a widely known fact. - Wed, 15 Oct 2008 1:06pm
Kyle
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Inconsiderate people, regardless of how much stuff they do or don't own, are a drain on society. - Wed, 15 Oct 2008 1:14pm
mica
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I think everybody is missing the point here. What about the squirrels? Whats going to happen to their nuts when the homeless move in? Will the squirrels nuts get crushed beneath the feet of the homeless? Will the homeless eat their nuts? Play games with their nuts to pass the time? What kind of precedent are we setting here? Do we really want our squirrel population freaking out about how to best protect their collective nuts? This isn't crazy, this is just nuts. Squirrel Nutkin is rolling over in his shoebox. - Wed, 15 Oct 2008 1:34pm
Mike
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Put the tent city up behind Bear Mtn. and we'll see how long till the Colwood mayor runs them out of town... - Wed, 15 Oct 2008 1:35pm
Zedius
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Those squirrels are tame enough to eat. - Wed, 15 Oct 2008 2:08pm
BBJones
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A little FYI from the GVCC

- Supreme Court Ruling Exacerbates City Problems

The BC Supreme Court this week ruled that the homeless are free to camp in public parks because there is not enough shelter or housing accommodation for them. The ruling came down on Tuesday, and by Tuesday evening there was an ad hoc tent city of 25 campers in Beacon Hill park.

This is an unacceptable solution to our homeless problem - for everyone, including the homeless. The Chamber continues to lobby on the need for more funding for a National Housing First Strategy and will work with all levels of government to come to a solution.

Listen to CBC Radio 90.5 FM on Thursday, October 16 at 7:15 AM. Bruce Carter, Chamber CEO, will discuss the Court ruling. - Wed, 15 Oct 2008 2:55pm
inhalien
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And just for the record, there are lots of us on Live Vic who do care about people, who do care about the homeless and the less fortunate. The issue I think some of us have is David Arthur Johnston willingly moving here a scant 12 years ago, willingly giving up his job and willingly deciding to live on the streets for 8 years. He Chose This Lifestyle on his own after some epiphany and unfortunately we are now paying for this. He is demanding a place to stay and I just don't agree that it should be in a place he chooses. If he wants to set up a tent, fine - let it be Goldstream, away from the city. - Wed, 15 Oct 2008 3:09pm
ciao
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I saw the so-called "tent city" today. It's small, so I think if it as either a "tent village" or simply a group campsite.

Also, it looked like everyone there had showered, and I didn't recognize anyone from downtown, so I'm not convinced this bunch is all that homeless.

Doesn't help that the tents look all nice and new..... - Wed, 15 Oct 2008 4:13pm
Zedius
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I live in Metchosin and work downtown. Gas is expensive, and the commute is depressing. Hmm... - Wed, 15 Oct 2008 4:36pm
J. Peatman
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"Inconsiderate people, regardless of how much stuff they do or don't own, are a drain on society."

How exactly am I a drain on society? - Wed, 15 Oct 2008 5:44pm
Spinvis
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i think you misinterpreted Kyle's statement... - Wed, 15 Oct 2008 5:54pm
J. Peatman
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No, I'm just being funny. :) - Wed, 15 Oct 2008 7:30pm
Chopper
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Too damn funny...

So you're going to now go and start a tent city... Cities aren't temporary, and the victory hollow. Enjoy the early morning wake up call you'll all be given every morning to clean up your shit and hit the trail. Temporary is just that. And there's enough wiggle room for the 'baby raping' crown to still haul your worthless ass off to jail when you decide to protest that, legally or illegally, and waste another million+ dollars of taxpayers cash. Hopefully this time they'll just keep you behind bars. - Wed, 15 Oct 2008 9:02pm
BBJones
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And as all of you intelligent folk knew, regarding the technicality that was ruled on, here is part of the unravelling reality of the situation...

http://www.canada.com/victoriatimescolonist/news/story.html?id=0382423a-2b8a-4917-84c6-5b00e6cb256f

And now some of my favourite parts of the story....

"The toolbox is not empty," interim chief Bill Naughton said yesterday. "This is a very narrow judgment with very narrow impact, and it's important to try to not extract more from the judgment than what it says.

"It is not a carte blanche for a tent city, or open season, or [any] of those things."


".... what started then as a political movement was quickly compromised by drug addicts and criminals."

Enforcing criminal laws -- possession of drugs, assaults, etc. -- and bylaw infractions, such as fires, was key to controlling the community, he said.

"All those behaviours are unaffected by this judgment," said Naughton.

" As I said, the [legal] decision doesn't contemplate the establishment of a permanent tent city."

Police are expected to seek direction from council today at a meeting at city hall. - Thu, 16 Oct 2008 8:46am Edited: Thu, 16 Oct 2008 8:47am
DAJ
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St. Ann's update- Oct. 16th, 2008: day 3 report

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I'll be in a state of shock for a while yet. The officials are not happy. This morning there were 6 or 7 tents plus a double tarp covering a table area. All of their talk suggests they will come down on any infraction. So far it has been very very cool. I've been making a point of telling everyone who sets up near me that I will not tolerate assholes and obnoxious behaviour. So much is happening. Right now it is cool because having the whole of the parks open means people can congregate with whatever 'section' of society they want... AKA meth kids and alcoholics can start their own encampments. City council is flailing, literally, I think. They will crack down on anything they can get... with that in mind- we could use a burning barrel cut to not be an 'open-flame' (leave the lid on attach a small stove pipe on top then cut out a couple three openings on the side and poke a few more smaller holes).

If people are interested and have means and opportunities sitting in their basements going unused there are some specific things that would benefit the tent-city-

ropes, string
tarps, tents (more people are coming and it is important to establish a kitchen area)
food stuffs are excellent (it is always hard to criticize donations)...
good spirit (come on down and see the beginnings of the greatest change that our society has ever seen)
music, cheer
tobacco for the long wet nights- weirdly enough, there is still magic left in it.
and maybe most importantly- the burning barrel cut to not be an open flame.
big BIG tents and teepees

love you all,

David Arthur Johnston

Victoria, BC, Canada

Hatrackman@Gmail.com

Home page- http://www.angelfire.com/apes/hatrackman

Journal of the Occupation of St. Ann's Academy (Victoria, BC, Canada)- http://www.angelfire.com/apes/hatrackman/welcome.htm

Crimes of Necessity- http://www.loveandfearlessness.com (from filmmaker Andrew Ainsley. Very comprehensive.) - Thu, 16 Oct 2008 9:33am
BBJones
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OMG. Ok your luncacy has fully revealed itself.

Do you actually think, homeless, junkies, addicts and criminals are going to be capable of setting up your Utipian dream in Beacon Hill park?

Are you serious?

Do you really think the "meth kids" are going to leave you alone to your peaceful corner of the "city"?

They don't do it now? What on earth (or in space) makes you think anything will be "better"?

Unreal.

Thanks for wasting so much of our money on your idiocy. - Thu, 16 Oct 2008 9:57am
Zedius
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This is an appeal to angry 15 year olds everywhere! Do you listen to punk rock? Want to do something politically relevant but don't know how? Steal a tarp from your dad and bring it to DAJ!

uuurrrrg.... - Thu, 16 Oct 2008 10:44am Edited: Thu, 16 Oct 2008 10:45am
BBJones
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Tidbit:

CRD Parks this spring spent $10,000 cleaning out an illegal campsite buried so deeply inside Mill Hill Regional Park that a helicopter had to be hired to haul away some 2,000 kilograms of garbage. - Thu, 16 Oct 2008 2:10pm
JDL
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"food stuffs are excellent (it is always hard to criticize donations)..."

for someone so against the gov't you're willing to accept food that someone WORKED for and used GOV'T ENDORSED money to buy your FOODS with, its strange you would be asking for HANDOUTS.

"tobacco for the long wet nights- weirdly enough, there is still magic left in it."

Go fuck yourself. My packs dont come with spares asshole, you fucking gypo.

"and maybe most importantly- the burning barrel cut to not be an open flame."

I'll give you a barrell... i'll roll it over your dam tent in the morning. loser.

you fucking drain on society, i hope you roll over on a fucking needle in the middle of the night. Your parents must be either turning over in their graves; or have already dis-owned you from the family. - Thu, 16 Oct 2008 2:35pm
canon.docre
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JDL you're a fucking goof. - Thu, 16 Oct 2008 2:51pm
JDl
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ok and your a douche bag bleeding heart that enables people like Daj to leech off society.
And btw, you can fuck off with daj; cuz from the sounds of it you want it up the pooter! - Thu, 16 Oct 2008 2:55pm
Aidan Logins
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"I will not tolerate assholes and obnoxious behaviour."

I like how DAJ has declared himself ruler of the tent city after roaring about how horrible rulers are he has become a dictator. I'd like to see that conversation with the unruly homeless...

DAJ:"you guys shut up, you can't be noisy here in tent city"
Other: "raaghhgrabbledickfuckinggovernmentaliensfuckarugheooo." - Thu, 16 Oct 2008 3:55pm
Endeløs
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Canon.Docre is DAJ's biggest cheerleader. Total support for kingbum and his quest for hoboimfamy!!!!

Betcha you'd whistle a different tune if you had family that enjoyed the former beauty that was Beacon Hill Park.
Why should you care though? You take comfort and pride in your squaller. A true crust til the end, eh?
And a middle finger to the hard working, productive, tax paying members of society. People that perhaps enjoyed a walk in the park without dodging hordes of junkies and trash.
Open your eyes. This is destined to become little more than a tented and tarped version of Vancouver's East Hastings. - Thu, 16 Oct 2008 4:05pm
Hearse
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You guys fritter around about a few thousand bucks while the gov't is planning to put billions into banks which screw you way harder than DAJ could ever hope for.

Perspective: get some. - Thu, 16 Oct 2008 4:24pm
Endeløs
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Pull head from ass, Hearse.
Not talking about $ here, we're talking about the ability to enjoy our parks without encountering a tent city upon our arrival.
Tent city=junkies.

Perspective: you're an ignorant ass, Hearse. - Thu, 16 Oct 2008 4:43pm
Bounce
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I'm thinking of setting up my two room tent right in front of the flower bed that says Beacon Hill Park right on the corner of Douglas and Superior… I will bring signs that read the following!

Shopping cart parking to the left

Needle exchange to the right

Welcome to TENT CITY formally known as Beacon Hill Park!

Oh and by the way, during off-season most campsites don’t charge for staying overnight….hmmmm a campsite the perfect place for a tent... who knew…but I guess then Goldstream Park is way to far away from the nearest soup kitchen or working adults with spare change in their pockets!!!!! - Thu, 16 Oct 2008 4:44pm
Spinvis
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I'll bring the marshmellows... woooo!!! party it up at tent city y'all - Thu, 16 Oct 2008 4:55pm
Bounce
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see - Thu, 16 Oct 2008 4:56pm
Zedius
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Are you sure Goldstream doesn't charge, Bounce?

In any case, I'm pretty sure they have a 14 day maximum for staying in provincial parks.

Funny/sad about Millhill. That is a beautiful park, and a very fragile one. I'm not surprised there was an encampment there. - Thu, 16 Oct 2008 5:08pm
DAJ
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New Bylaw Prohibiting Sleeping After 7:00 AM

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Bylaw officers came by this afternoon to hand out notifications of a new bylaw that says only during the night can people sleep in tents.

Regardless of the obviousness of the 'Constitutional' issues involved in suggesting people have to arrange their lives to an arbitrary time, the Corporation of the City of Victoria has been guilty of exasperating the problem in their 'management' of it and really have no authority to do anything but suggest a better place to go. Within walking distance from downtown, mayhaps with amenities and, of course, a provision for growth.

Will you come and stand up for freedom? The 'affordable housing' crisis was solved on Tuesday morning and there are those who would reverse it... and they're coming down to the tent-city tomorrow morning to force us out.

At the risk of sounding like I am promoting pride I say- Where are you Victoria? Where are you West Coast?

in love and worthiness of being presumed innocent of,

David Arthur Johnston

Victoria, BC, Canada

Hatrackman@Gmail.com

Home page- http://www.angelfire.com/apes/hatrackman

Journal of the Occupation of St. Ann's Academy (Victoria, BC, Canada)- http://www.angelfire.com/apes/hatrackman/welcome.htm

Crimes of Necessity- http://www.loveandfearlessness.com (from filmmaker Andrew Ainsley. Very comprehensive.) - Thu, 16 Oct 2008 6:03pm
LilyVon
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DAJ- Question... How is it you can get to a computer, use one efficiently, and appear articulate on camera, yet you can't get help to get off the streets? I'm not trying to be rude. I'm seriously curious. If you have the means to get to a computer and post on a forum, how come you can't print out a resume? There are places where you can get free clothes or even a suit for interviews. You can volunteer places and get some or more work experience to put on a resume. It doesn't appear that you are a drug or alcohol problem (from the times I've seen you appear on TV or the times I've seen you around). So why is it you aren't choosing to change your life? Do you suffer from a mental illness? I 'suffer' (I don't like to use that term since I don't suffer from it, I deal with it) from anxiety and agoraphobia, so I do understand how a mental illness can take over and make living and dealing with life difficult. I am just genuinely curious. Are you choosing to continue to live on the streets, or is there a reason you are there?

If the homeless people were all families needing a place to set up camp then I'd be all for it. Unfortunately though many people are drug addicts, alcoholics, or have severe mental illness. I don't trust nor really want them sleeping and living in the parks I take my 2 yr old. It's unfortunate that these homeless people ruin it for other homeless people, but they do. They can't take care of themselves, how are they going to take care of the park where they are calling home? - Thu, 16 Oct 2008 6:13pm
J. Peatman
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Lily,

The only reason this guy is on the street is because he made the choice to. He will deny that there is such a thing as choice and calls it "fate", but fact is that he had a decent job and (probably) home, and after having a stoned epiphany one night gave it up to live on the streets. And is convinced that street life is the best thing for every living individual and that he is going to bring on great social changes.

At any rate, there is nothing that keeps him from picking up a job again and rent a place. Therefore he should not be able to make any claim on a bed in a homeless shelter, or a meal at a soup kitchen. Although I don't think he ever sleeps inside, he has been known to enjoy tax funded and donated food at facilities for the homeless and on the street. Instead of giving the next homeless guy in line who REALLY needs it the opportunity.

That's pretty much all there is to say about the guy, without pointing out really obviously negative sides about him. - Thu, 16 Oct 2008 6:27pm
J. Peatman
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"You guys fritter around about a few thousand bucks while the gov't is planning to put billions into banks which screw you way harder than DAJ could ever hope for."

Yeah you're right! If only they would have elections soon, so we could choose our government. They're long overdue. - Thu, 16 Oct 2008 6:30pm
ciao
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DAJ used to work and pay taxes. I think he was a chef, or something. Anyway he decided to 'fight the Man' instead of working, and started with the whole St. Anne's epic. I doubt he's homeless. He has a relative, an uncle I believe, in the area. And it sure looks like he has daily access to a shower and laundry. No comment on his sanity.

. - Thu, 16 Oct 2008 7:47pm
Mr. Hell
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"Well if your uncle is a paranoid schiz, im sure you know how hard it would be to detail out the litter laws to him and get him to understand."

If he doesn't comply with the laws, take him in and put him in front of a judge. When he is shown to not be fit to be tried, involuntarily commit him to EMP and give him the medication he requires to function productively. They let people walk out of there of their own volition way too easily sometimes.

"Regardless, having people make a tent city downtown is the first step in actually getting lawmakers / officials see a problem that needs fixing rather than ignore it."

Yes, the lawmakers and officials are dense and need a wake up call like this to get the ball rolling. I still don't like it though.

"So, being someone that says they both know and understand the problems faced by the homeless in need, what would be your better solution?"

You're homeless and mentally ill? You are committed to a psych ward whether you volunteer or not until things are better for you.

You're homeless and drug addled? Expect to be treated like a worthless junkie until you hit bottom and smarten up and seek help.

You're homeless and lazy? Tough shit. Grow up. - Thu, 16 Oct 2008 8:45pm
canon.docre
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The elections are rigged.

JDL resorts to homophobic bullshit, not that I'm surprised, maybe I do 'want it in my pooter' and what the fuck is that to you.

Endeløs the last time I addressed you on this messageboard we were trying to arrange somewhere to fight and it got deleted (for obvious reasons.) You're a fucking idiot; get fucked.

Keep up the good work DAJ. Not everyone is equipped to work some 9-5 job their whole life, I definitely see where you're coming from.

You know for the meaningless ratrace so many people think is more noble than living a life of leisure, it seems these people who are wrapped up in making money lack a certain mechanism for understanding your fellow man. If your choice of life is so much better than someone who gets by on spare change, soup kitchens, and sleeping under a tarp, why do you people seem so angry, bitter, and ultimately depressed and/or stressed to a breaking point, lashing out at people who obviously don't possess the want or ability to live a "normal" life.

How nice it would be to work less, and to perhaps learn again how to be a part of a community, to have real relationships with people, and to quit distracting ourselves with consumerism. I'm happier when I'm not working some stupid job, and I could certainly get by on working 5 hours a week if I gave up alcohol, drugs, and lived communally/outside, without taking advantage of handouts. I work a lot right now, and I'm good at making money with little effort, and I'm working on funneling my earnings into what could loosely be defined as community projects instead of just blowing it all on booze.
Trying to practice what I preach, I guess you could say.

I guess I'm a hypocrite but at least I don't go around hating on fucking homeless people. - Thu, 16 Oct 2008 8:59pm
Mr. Hell
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Don't be so thick.
The issue here is the sanitation and refuse issue that affects everyone who pays for the upkeep of these spaces through their tax dollars. Would you be willing to go and clean up after the worst offenders, canon docre? Maybe help these people hold on to their right to sleep in parks by cleaning up after them? If you will go and do so every day, you may be more credible. THAT would be some serious dedication to the cause.
If the homeless population policed themselves and put a stop to the irresponsible behavior, the rest of us would not even give it a thought, in most cases.
Some people just love to hate the homeless though. Why? Easy target.
I am looking forward to anyone who breaks the by-laws in these parks to be made examples of. Looks like it will happen that way.
Want to act like a retarded infant? Expect to be treated as such. - Thu, 16 Oct 2008 9:10pm
DOOMHAMMER
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I'll try to stay away from the usual ad hominems in an effort to have a somewhat more thought out post than some of the ones on here.

The homeless problem we face is not unusual, as if you do a quick google search you'll find that almost every city in north america has raising homelessness. Cities such as calgary, edmonton, saskatoon and other quickly developing and 'rich' cities are finding themselves with faster growing problems than others.

It doesnt come as a surprise that these same areas also have the lowest vacancy rates in canada/usa. One of the biggest problems is the fact that both land prices are so high, and that houses are allowed to be built and sold at such an outrageous profit.

A good example is in 1999 the city of calgary built an amazing 16 units of low income housing.

While this is not exactly an excuse, it does greatly impact the hardships people with disabilities do face in finding themselves housing.

As a whole, we as canadians have reduced the amount of institutions for the mentally handicapped from almost 75,000 to just under 20,000. We've reduced the amount of low income housing, reduced welfare / medical / medical ei, and doubled rental prices.

The amount of shelters has stayed the same, but their funding and safety has reduced. As much as I dont agree with religion or churches, they have done more in recent history than just about anything else.

As easy as it is to say 'Just arrest' them, more taxpayers would rather see them on the sidewalk costing minimal amounts than 20,000+ (doesnt inclue construction costs) in jail per year.

Sadly enough, most people would also rather see them sleeping in the park than how much it would cost them to get the help they need.

You can bitch, whine, and yell out your window all you want, but until people are actually willing to pick up some of the bill its not exactly going to go away.

Would you be willing to go and help clean up Mr. Hell? I'd be willing to make this deal, if you went there one day for an hour to cleap up, I'd go the next. Hell, find 365 people willing to spend 1-2 hours one day of the year and a lot of the cleaning problem would be fixed.

Hell, maybe we could even contact a company like oceans (portable bathrooms), and if we all chipped in 10 bucks maybe it could just be cleaned every couple days so the problem wouldnt even be there.

You guys hate it, I dont like it, but regardless of what I like and dislike I understand that some shit is just beyond our abilities to simply fix with rational thought and common sense.

If only people were half as dedicated to the enviroment and not shopping at places like walmart! - Thu, 16 Oct 2008 10:06pm
Mr. Hell
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One major thing that has shaped my views on this problem is the fact that I spent 7 years working for a company that was in charge of lawn and garden maintenance at the law courts, downtown library and various CRD Health Units around Grater Victoria. I've spent countless hours cleaning up after these people. Their garbage, bodily waste, used syringes and belongings all strewn through the gardens and bushes. During autumn, the constant threat of being poked with a syringe that you can't see through the piles of leaves no matter how careful you were. Piles of untamed junkie diarrhea coiled on the steps of the Law Courts that contain a wide variety of unhealthy pathogens. Sleeping bags stuffed in bushes that are filled with feces and needles that spill out when the article is removed from the branches.
I've put in my time. Not sure of the exact amount in hours, but I can assure you it's vast amounts more than you and the Crusty Knee-Jerker could and will ever put in.
You have some serious catching up to do. Better get a good night's sleep and get at 'er tomorrow. - Thu, 16 Oct 2008 10:44pm
Aidan Logins
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" Within walking distance from downtown, mayhaps with amenities "

dammit DAJ people might really respect you if you werenn't a total hippocrate. Society SUCKS (except their running hot water, toilets, food programs, fast food restaurants, cigarettes, liquor stores, etc. etc...). Pick a side. Go and live in the woods or at least admit that you thrive on the capitalist society that you claim to hate.

and then you talk about standing up for freedom, but claim there is no such thing as free will. I know you're smart enough to see that the whole concept of having freedom relies on the concept of free will being a fact. Without free will there would be no possibility for freedom- it would never even come up. Freedom implies that you WANT to CHOOSE how and where you live. Free Will.
please actually listen to me this time... choose a side for real, or your fate will be as a silly mad vagrant, not a freedom fighter or changer-of-things. - Thu, 16 Oct 2008 11:07pm
BBJones
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"Piles of untamed junkie diarrhea coiled on the steps of the Law Courts..."

I would argue that diarrhea cannot end up formed in a coil. - Fri, 17 Oct 2008 8:42am
tom
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It's still poop, BBJ and it's a motherfucker to have to deal wit' - Fri, 17 Oct 2008 9:07am
JDL
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Cannon. Its people like you that doesn't help the situation. What solution are you offering aside from pointing your finger at us saying "we're idiots for hating on homeless people". Whats so different from you hating us? Just because you have some sort of man-love for the homeless population doesn't mean its A-OK to be homeless. I feel ABSOLUTELY NO RESPONSIBILITY for these vagrants. Who's should be responsible for someone else life? Nobody. YOUR LIFE IS YOUR RESPONSIBILITY.
If Daj really wants this; then dont come here, dont make posts asking for hand-outs, dont expect people to like it. He made his choice in life so deal with it. Unless he really cant survive without our society coddling him like an unwanted child in an orphange. Grow up and grow a sack you fucking idiot. - Fri, 17 Oct 2008 9:20am
Bounce
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"YOUR LIFE IS YOUR RESPONSIBILITY".

Well said! That is so true, you reap what you sew...why should anyone have to be responsible for the maintenance of another human being who is not family and means nothing to them! Keep care of your own, taxpayers are already paying enough into the welfare system, and don’t get me wrong I’m glad it’s there I have had to use it before, but I paid back every penny! All human compassion aside, I’m not an evil person, I don’t hate…but I have my reasons for being very upset that it is allowed to camp out in parks, and how many are going to come from Vancouver because it is still illegal over there as far as I know. By 2010 when the Olympics come, Victoria is going to swarming …welcome to Victoria…home of the homeless!!! - Fri, 17 Oct 2008 10:43am
Zedius
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That would be fun hey? Vancouver can thrive during the olympics, buy every homeless person a ferry ticket, and smash our tourism industry. - Fri, 17 Oct 2008 11:03am
Hearse
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"Not talking about $ here"

Um...

"enjoy your temporary stay in one of our lovely parks that I help pay for"

"$15,000 in tax money down the drain (and into the oceans) to clean up the parks"

"you're willing to accept food that someone WORKED for and used GOV'T ENDORSED money to buy your FOODS with"

etc.

I guess some people have trouble with things like reading. It's sad 'cause reading can be super helpful and stuff.

Anyhoo, while you complain about the minuscule costs of social welfare, our corporate welfare system is going strong.

Y'all must have voted Conservative, eh? - Fri, 17 Oct 2008 12:05pm
Hearse
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And...

"Perspective: you're an ignorant ass, Hearse."

Yeah, well you're an illiterate fuckface. That means that people fuck your face, suggesting that your face is for fucking... basically your face is a fag. A fag that can't read. - Fri, 17 Oct 2008 12:17pm Edited: Fri, 17 Oct 2008 12:21pm
J. Peatman
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Regardless of what everyone thinks are financial priorities, the city cleaning up municipal parks because a group of irresponsible adults couldn't be bothered to take care of their own mess is a waste of tax dollars, wouldn't you agree? - Fri, 17 Oct 2008 2:08pm
stew
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Don't complain about social funding and monetary resources untill you are actually willing to give up a significant amount of income in taxes. And I'm not talking an income below $20 000, a decent working and liveable income of $35000 to $45000 gets taxed heavily. Government beaurcracy is a money hog as it is, the last thing people need to do is funnel more of their hard earned income into idealistic beliefs that more money will solve the homelessness problem. Moreoever it is unfair. - Fri, 17 Oct 2008 2:09pm
Hearse
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"actually willing to give up a significant amount of income in taxes"

Fully 1/4 of my income goes to various taxes, directly off my cheque. Most purchases then incur a further 12% sales tax. Fuel, liquor, tobacco, and other targeted taxes add to that as well. MSP payments (a scam IMO) too.

I have no problem with these tax regimens (aside from MSP, which is highly regressive) when the monies are going to social programs such as health or education or infrastructure such as roads or sewers. I also understand that such a huge system is going to have some waste and fraud.

What sticks in my craw are gifts to corporations who have run themselves into the ground through mismanagement, like large financial institutions and forestry companies.

I don't give a fuck about a few misguided apocalyptians tenting in a park which is covered in pesticides and herbicides, a danger you forget about because it's not staring you in the face.

There's no more nature at Beacon Hill Park than there is food at McDonald's.

"a group of irresponsible adults couldn't be bothered to take care of their own mess is a waste of tax dollars, wouldn't you agree?"

You've also glossed over the mention that Victoria's sewage is simply pumped out into the ocean untreated. Think about your hypocrisy the next time you flush those unused antibiotics down the toilet. - Fri, 17 Oct 2008 2:31pm
Bounce
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Nothing is ever going to change homelessness anywhere! There is always going to be a problem, even if you rehabilitate several hundred of them, several hundred more are unable to live what we call a normal life, there used to be a show on TV in the states, they would give a homeless person like $50,000 and see what they would do with it and most of them blew through it in a couple of months and were right back out on the streets. This one dude rented an apartment, furnished it, bought a nice truck, and food, helped out a couple of buddies etc. he never slept in the bed because he was so used to sleeping on the ground. Within 3 months or so he was sleeping in his truck! I can’t see a solution anywhere, the more facilities we build the more homeless people we will attract. It goes on forever we can argue both sides…I hate the fact that they are able to set up camp in parks I think it’s wrong…has anyone driven through there yet? I did yesterday…they are right out in the open field looking like a big pile of garbage…. - Fri, 17 Oct 2008 2:34pm
Mike
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Dammit,, if they had just ruled this a month ago I coulda spent the long weekend camping on Dallas Rd! - Fri, 17 Oct 2008 3:43pm
J. Peatman
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"You've also glossed over the mention that Victoria's sewage is simply pumped out into the ocean untreated. Think about your hypocrisy the next time you flush those unused antibiotics down the toilet."

Actually, I haven't. Doomhammer made that similar remark, and this is what I told him about halfway up the page:

~I'd also like to know if you have a better plan for sewage than to flush it into the ocean. Until then, it still is a better alternative than to shit in businesses' doorways and around playgrounds.~

Do you shit in a bucket and spread it out across your lawn? Do you gargle it when you get a staph infection? Welcome to the capital's population of hypocrites then.

You're almost implying that homeless excrement is a valuable resource and should be left on public lawns and sidewalks instead of cleaned up. You can't possibly be that dumb. - Fri, 17 Oct 2008 3:55pm
trevor corey
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When I was a teenager, tent city would have been a great target at Halloween.

Two cartons of rotten eggs- $3.98
Fireworks- $19.95
Being 16, doing donuts in mom's '72 four door Chev Impala on an egg soaked tent city, high on mushrooms, drunk on shitmix
................PRICELESS!


.....now, back to my hiatus. - Fri, 17 Oct 2008 4:08pm
canon.docre
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"Regardless of what everyone thinks are financial priorities, the city cleaning up municipal parks because a group of irresponsible adults couldn't be bothered to take care of their own mess is a waste of tax dollars, wouldn't you agree?"

This is just petty, and a "drop in the ocean," if you catch my drift. The highest cost of this is going to be the wages of the people doing the cleaning, paid to employed go-getters, and funneled right back into your economy, so in the grand scheme of things its not really a waste at all. - Fri, 17 Oct 2008 4:33pm
canon.docre
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"When I was a teenager, tent city would have been a great target at Halloween.

Two cartons of rotten eggs- $3.98
Fireworks- $19.95
Being 16, doing donuts in mom's '72 four door Chev Impala on an egg soaked tent city, high on mushrooms, drunk on shitmix
................PRICELESS!"

that's nothing. nowadays kids beat, kill, and light homeless people on fire while they're asleep.

http://query.nytimes.com/gst/fullpage.html?res=9E04E3DC123AF935A25756C0A9679C8B63
http://www.highbeam.com/doc/1P2-7102811.html
http://www.courttv.com/trials/lobato/091406_openings_ctv.html?link=yhlk - Fri, 17 Oct 2008 4:39pm
Endeløs
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Sweet! Thanks for the awesome suggestions, Canon!
And here I thought you were advocating for these bums.

Lets listen to some Norsk Arisk black metal together and destroy some crack heads. I know you know what I'm getting at!!!!! - Fri, 17 Oct 2008 5:04pm
BBJones
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A little FYI for the braniacs out there...

Victoria does not dump its sewage - the sewage effluent is screened and discharged through two deep ocean outfalls into the marine waters of the Strait of Juan de Fuca. The terms “dump” and “raw” unfairly characterize this effective, engineered approach that has enabled the natural disposal of Victoria’s sewage effluent for the past 30 years and in this specific marine environment, is considered as effective as primary or even secondary treatment of sewage.

http://www.rstv.ca/is-victoria-dumping-raw-sewage/

So yeah, I can see how that sounds the same as people shitting in our parks downtown.

I was walking behind one junkie woman earlier this year, and she had the decency to at least bend down when she stepped off the sidewalk, dropped her drawers and unloaded a pile into a persons front yard. Stood up and walked off.

It was 2:30 in the afternoon.

I can see how that is exactly the same as Victoria dumping all that raw sewage right into little fishies mouths. - Fri, 17 Oct 2008 5:10pm Edited: Fri, 17 Oct 2008 5:13pm
Mr. Hell
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"I would argue that diarrhea cannot end up formed in a coil."

There must be some catalyst in the smack that makes it so because I've seen it...true story. - Fri, 17 Oct 2008 5:29pm
Jl
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the whole effluent waste problem(if you can call it that) is exactly as BBJ posted. There is such thing as currents, long shore drift etc... that all have play in natrully breaking down the effluent. You honestly think water just sits still in the ocean? Where do the fish shit? what about whales? sea lions etc... It all gets broken down because of the current. anyhow.
You environmentalists have absolutely no clue whats going on. You preech human rights, equality for everyone; but when it comes down to it, your nut sack crawls right up your stomach. Cannon, I dont know why you have such a hate on for people who work for a living and feel a sense of gratitude when you EARN something. I feel Daj and his mantra are against everything I believe in. I dont mind him preeching his mantra; but to come here and call us ALL out saying that we're nothing but choice-deprived taxpaying baby-raper supporting fools. I take offence to that; and unlike your sorry ass, I speak up. I take responsibility for what I say, do, and live for. If you cant accept that; then you need to grow up and let the nut sack drop, son. - Fri, 17 Oct 2008 5:29pm
canon.docre
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Darkthrone was accused of supporting National Socialism after the release of their album Transilvanian Hunger (1994). The back cover originally displayed the phrases True Norwegian Black Metal and Norsk Arisk Black Metal (Norwegian Aryan Black Metal), but due to the negative response of many distributors, the latter phrase was removed. As a response to the controversy, Darkthrone included the following statement on their next album: "Darkthrone is certainly not a Nazi band nor a political band, those of you who still might think so, you can lick Mother Mary's asshole in eternity."

Enjoy your taint, Endeløs. - Fri, 17 Oct 2008 5:37pm
Endeløs
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Enjoy your taint, Endeløs.

Believe me, I am enjoying it!

Oh, by the way-

"Eithun (drummer of Emperor) was convicted of murdering a homosexual man in Lillehammer, Norway on the 21st of August, 1992. The victim was found stabbed multiple times with a knife, and the murder occurred near a park that had held the opening ceremonies of the 1994 Winter Olympic Games.[1] Faust was released in 2003 after serving 9 years and 4 months of an original 14 year sentence.

Thanks again for supporting NSBM and the killing of homosexuals, Herr Canon! Sieg Heil. - Fri, 17 Oct 2008 5:49pm
Mr. Hell
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I'm just glad that 'A Blaze In The Northern Sky' was created. - Fri, 17 Oct 2008 9:48pm
JDL
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"Johnston said it's unreasonable to expect people sleeping in parks to move on at 7 a.m.

"My system doesn't work on a seven o'clock in the morning routine," he said. "We're waiting for the city to eventually go through all of its political hubbub and get to the point where, even if it doesn't want to, the only possible solution out of this, besides letting us stay here, is making a place that's more attractive," he said.

But that doesn't include a bed in a shelter, which he likened to an internment camp."

http://www.canada.com/victoriatimescolonist/news/story.html?id=251c7878-325c-4c4c-8356-880fb1640644


and this is the kind of behavior and attitude people like cannon. support. Way to go champ! - Fri, 17 Oct 2008 10:23pm
Bounce
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"As police attempted to untangle the bodies and make arrests, cries of "Shame!" came from onlookers, while mayoral candidate Kristen Woodruff, of no fixed address, did handstands only steps away."


....lol....what the fuck? - Sat, 18 Oct 2008 9:10am Edited: Sat, 18 Oct 2008 9:18am
DOOMHAMMER
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While I disagree with most of you, I do think that the 9pm - 7am bylaw is both needed and good.

Really no reason why you cant be cleaned up and ready to go by 7am. - Sat, 18 Oct 2008 1:29pm
Mr. Hell
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These are the people who are taking advantage of this ruling and abusing it. The people who would rather laze around and sponge off the rest of us than go and earn their keep even though they are very capable of swinging a hammer or pushing a broom or spreading paint around with a brush or whatever.
Hate the government and taxes? Work for cash like others do. DO SOMETHING.
They should receive no sympathy or help unless they are honestly trying to get out of the rut they've created for themselves.
Even helping them out of that would be very generous. - Sat, 18 Oct 2008 1:38pm
stew
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I wonder if DAJ thinks I should buy him breakfast as well. - Sat, 18 Oct 2008 1:40pm
DAJ
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Important Things To Know About The Supreme Court Tent Ruling

-

The city has taken a few liberties in their interpretation of the new Supreme Court ruling that now allows tents to be set up in Victoria city parks. Firstly, the idea that the ruling only goes into effect when there are not enough shelter beds is completely wrong. Our lawyers had always said that the Charter Challenge would have been made harder, if not impossible, if there were enough shelter beds. That being said, now that the Challenge has been 'successful' the only stipulation it proposes is that only homeless people are allowed to set up temporary shelters and legally it would not matter if there were 2000 empty shelter beds.

Secondly, yes, it was generally accepted that once the anti-tent bylaws were struck that the city could still make new bylaws to better work with the judge's ruling. In this case, the city just adopted another constitutionally violating bylaw that restricts people's ability to sleep in a tent after 7:00 AM. It would not be a violation if there was somewhere tents COULD go up 24/7... within walking distance to downtown and with provisions for growth.

As it stands now, though, I feel I more jail time in my future, as it can still take years to have another Supreme Court ruling to say you can protect yourself from the weather, with a tent, at any time. We have the hardest times we will ever face coming and have no doubt that the government's 'management' of 'homelessness' does not include tent-cities. George W. Bush was right, at least about one thing- you are either with us or against us. There is no neutral.

David Arthur Johnston

Victoria, BC, Canada

Hatrackman@Gmail.com

Home page- http://www.angelfire.com/apes/hatrackman

Journal of the Occupation of St. Ann's Academy (Victoria, BC, Canada)- http://www.angelfire.com/apes/hatrackman/welcome.htm

Crimes of Necessity- http://www.loveandfearlessness.com (from filmmaker Andrew Ainsley. Very comprehensive.) - Sat, 18 Oct 2008 2:19pm
Bounce
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"George W. Bush was right" that right there is wrong!... - Sat, 18 Oct 2008 2:51pm
Jl
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what's wrong with getting up at 7am? you lazy fuck. Whether they say you're allowed to be there until 7am or 10am; you'd still be bitching about it.

I drove past the supposed "tent-city" about a couple hours before it was taken apart; and I'd have to say that the whole lot looked able enough to work; yet all were milling about doing ABSOLUTELY nothing. Way to go champs! - Sat, 18 Oct 2008 2:58pm
stefan
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Bottom line is that DAJ's Utopian vision is ugly and ill-conceived. Please kill yourself. Just don't leave your suicide note on Livevictoria.com - we're sick of you. - Sat, 18 Oct 2008 8:05pm
BBJones
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My fucking god, I'm seriously wanting to go murder this fuckstick.

All this retard is after is his abilty to create his own rules, in our downtown, as he pleases.

This is not about about "homelessnes" or helping anyone so canon.docre and Doomhammer can shut the hell up and take your agurments to some other forum that gives a shit.

This is about one single person, creating his own rules for how he wants to live his life, putting it to the courts and trying to force EVERYONE to accept his perspective. It's beyond my comprehension as to how the courts allow this turd to get anywhere. Can they not simple delcare him insane and put him away?

Seriously, if I was capable of murder that fuckstick would be dead right now.

So much disprespect I can't stand it! - Sat, 18 Oct 2008 9:46pm
Doc
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DAJ, the idea that the ruling is effective only when there arent enough shelter beds is completely RIGHT! That is almost verbatim what the judges ruling said. Further more, if the city were to somehow create enough emergency shelter space for all the homeless in Victoria that means that you wouldn't be able to camp at all. I think you ought to read the court decision more closely, or get your lawyers to read it to you if you're too lazy/stupid to do it yourself. The rights that it has afforded you are not at all those that you think they are.

~Keeping the world safe from democracy
Doc - Sat, 18 Oct 2008 10:21pm
canon.docre
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BBJones take a breather man. Hahahah you seriously want to murder some guy that's sleeping in a park because .. he's sleeping in a park, and wants homeless peopel to be able to sleep outside. Wow. Very courageous of you. I mean, if I was going to end someone's life, it would be because of something like this. Murder, man. Sweet. You're tough.

Doomhammer, I don't agree with you, and I'm sure there are many a morning you needed to sleep past 7am .. and did sleep past 7am. Just because you're sleeping outside doesn't mean you shouldn't get enough sleep.

And fuck going to work and swinging a hammer or moving around a paint brush. Hanging out in the park and sleeping is way sweeter than spending 8 hours a day, 5 days a week, doing stupid shit. We're all working too much, you guys are being cheated out of the best years of your life doing meaningless shit to make money to spend on other meaningless shit. - Sun, 19 Oct 2008 1:08pm
Sedlec
User Info...
you can't be serious.
Don't you know the feeling of a job well done, the satisfaction of earning your own keep? "working doing stupid shit" work towards getting a better job then.

Do you really think these people are going to look back on their lives and be satisified with what they have accomplished? Which is, sweet fuck all.

Yeah sure its great and all sleeping and hanging around, but personally, its sure as hell nice to go away on vacations, being able to DO THINGS.

Its obvious we're on a different planet, enough said. - Sun, 19 Oct 2008 1:27pm
trevor corey
User Info...
I like cannon's poetic post, but sadly the reality is not so poetic.
I work to pay for insulin, vet bills, clothing, food, etc.
I'm surprised no one has commented on Daj's "classism". He stated earlier that he was staking out the best real estate in the park, Mayor's Grove, and he would ask the undesirables to move to another part of the park, lol,
B U L L S H I T.

One of my clients is a lawyer for the firm that represented the "baby rapers" against Daj. He told me there are approximately 3,000 vacancies in Sooke, but the downtown homeless don't want to live there because they can't get their meth in Sooke.

The reason everyone here is so pissed is because we view many of these "campers" as spoiled brats, who feel a sense of entitlement, without the willingness to fulfill any of the corresponding obligations or responsibilities to be part of society.

I hope one day that there is no more homelessness.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=29g57XTYgLE&NR=1 - Sun, 19 Oct 2008 1:53pm
Mr. Hell
User Info...
They (and you, if you think it's a great idea) can laze around and do fuck all as much as you please. However, when the time comes that the social safety net is required to bail these people out, why should they be entitled?
If someone doesn't support or believe in paying taxes, society, democracy or anything else that provides these social safety nets, why should they be allowed to participate?
Why the need to have a tent city within walking distance of downtown? Downtown is there because of capitalism.
If the crown and judicial system are not working for you, why get excited when you think they've ruled in your favor only to find out that there were plenty of safe guards in place to stop retarded rulings from becoming gospel. Why even bother with the courts?
Need medical help? Better find some wild roots to help you because without taxpayers and a system in place, you will be left for dead.
Complete hypocrisy and contradiction.
But that is what DAJ and your beliefs are founded upon, so no big shocker. - Sun, 19 Oct 2008 1:54pm
Hearse
User Info...
There's a fuck of a lot of Protestantism in folks here.

The city is not maintained by capitalists. It's maintained by public money, IE: socialism. Capitalists do not run transit or build parks.

If you're not going to extend social services to everyone who asks, then let's get rid of them completely and we can all fend for ourselves: no police, no fire department, no road, sewer, or other infrastructure, no health care, etc.

That's capitalism.

Despite the fact that I believe DAJ is misguided, I now await the posts calling me his bum buddy. - Sun, 19 Oct 2008 2:17pm
DAJ
User Info...
St. Ann's update- Oct. 19th, 2008: in lieu of knowing the uncertain, yet predetermined future

-

I will resume holding vigil under the windows of the 'Crown' prosecutor's office, at the downtown library courtyard, during their office hours until there is a tent-city or 60 warriors gathered to assert one. I would say to not be afraid of what the 'warrior' designation represents in so far as it means 'someone who loves truth and enjoys interjecting in whirlwinds of frantic naivety.' The distinction between a warrior and a brute is that warriors abhor viciousness and the brutes enjoy it. Seems they were made for each other. Patience be with us.

David Arthur Johnston

Victoria, BC, Canada

Hatrackman@Gmail.com

Home page- http://www.angelfire.com/apes/hatrackman

Journal of the Occupation of St. Ann's Academy (Victoria, BC, Canada)- http://www.angelfire.com/apes/hatrackman/welcome.htm

Crimes of Necessity- http://www.loveandfearlessness.com (from filmmaker Andrew Ainsley. Very comprehensive.) - Sun, 19 Oct 2008 2:23pm
Mr. Hell
User Info...
"The city is not maintained by capitalists. It's maintained by public money, IE: socialism. Capitalists do not run transit or build parks."

Yeah. And? I said that downtown exists due to businesses being there. Business equals capitalism. Never said the city is maintained by capitalists. Twisting my words does not help you make your point.

"If you're not going to extend social services to everyone who asks, then let's get rid of them completely and we can all fend for ourselves: no police, no fire department, no road, sewer, or other infrastructure, no health care, etc."

Why should someone who doesn't believe in, want to participate in or support in some way social services and the infrastructure it takes to make them what they are receive the benefits of these services?
They are there for those who require them, not for those who use them to get by while putting down everyone who contributes to them.
Maybe it's Christian of people to help others and turn the other cheek while they are shat upon, but I don't think the majority of taxpayers subscribe to that bullshit.
However, I have no problem with people who are down on their luck using all the facilities and avenues they can to get back on their feet...as long as they aren't trying to tear down that very system as they use it.
Do you understand yet? Or are you going to continue half reading my posts just to argue for the sake of arguing? - Sun, 19 Oct 2008 2:37pm
trevor corey
User Info...
"Capitalists" pay taxes. The more money a capitalist makes, the more tax said capitalist has to pay.
Like it or not, we are all in this together.


.....oh, and to Round em Up, the marijuana industry brings in a conservatively estimated five billion dollars per year to the B.C. economy. More than fishing, and mining combined. You might think they don't pay taxes, but that money gets spent, and taxed in many ways. I wonder how many of your construction projects would never happen if all of a sudden that five billion was not here? - Sun, 19 Oct 2008 2:43pm Edited: Sun, 19 Oct 2008 2:43pm
trevor corey
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http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dL2XWp47QE0 - Sun, 19 Oct 2008 3:36pm
evilkleg
User Info...
You are all missing the primary point which is that some enterprising capitalist should set up a meth lab in Sooke and then cash in on all the homeless that would no longer have an excuse not to live there!

And in a slightly more serious tone: Am I missing something here? Weren't all the homeless sleeping in the parks BEFORE this ruling came down? What exactly has changed? Seems to me they are all just doing it slightly more legally now. Until there is suitable low income housing options for these people, they will sleep where ever they CAN.

My major concern here is sanitation. If these people are going to live off my hard earned taxes, the least they can do is clean up after themselves. It is very disrespectful to trash the very places we, as taxpayers, have set up for the homeless to live in. - Sun, 19 Oct 2008 3:39pm
Hearse
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"Or are you going to continue half reading my posts just to argue for the sake of arguing?"

Is that what you say to everyone who deigns to disagree with something you say?

...

"Business" is not inherently capitalist. Everyone in Victoria pays for the services provided downtown, which are to the benefit of business and non-business alike.

Were I a resident of Fairfield and *never* visited the core, for whatever reason, I would *still* be paying for the services the businesses take advantage of.

That is socialism: a sharing of the costs of maintaining infrastructure rather than passing the costs directly to those who use them.

In a true capitalist system, the businesses (and so, customers) pay directly for street cleaning or policing, do it themselves, or simply go without.

...

I can understand getting hot under the collar about slackers 'using up' taxpayer money. A certain amount of fraud is unavoidable in any system but it's actually a negligible portion of what we spend on social services.

The vast majority of people who find themselves using social services are indeed there temporarily and have no desire to be at the whims of folks like many here who would simply lump them in with DAJ, making an already shitty situation even worse.

...

My reference to Protestantism has nothing to do with Christianity per se. Stereotypically, a Protestant is a hard-working man who through his own efforts, succeeds.

The fallacy is that in a social society it is possible to do anything purely on your own effort.

...

"Why should someone who doesn't believe in, want to participate in or support in some way social services and the infrastructure it takes to make them what they are receive the benefits of these services?"

If the flip-side is that people who want to can opt-out of paying for these services, then there's no reason. Of course, that would mean the end of social services completely.

Just because I think DAJ is a cock for pretending to be homeless doesn't mean I want to see his diseased body lying dead on the sidewalk because no one is paid to clean it up.

That may be hyperbole in Victora, 'cause we're used to our social services, but I'm sure you've spent some time in Detroit or Philadelphia where scenes like that wouldn't be completely out of the question.

...

As far as pot growers go, no, I'm not a fucking pot grower. I think they're cowards for hiding in forests and basements instead of fighting to have it legalized.

Of course, they don't want it legalized because then their criminal profits would dry up and they'd have to pay taxes and ensure the safety of their operations like any normal business. - Sun, 19 Oct 2008 3:48pm
Mr. Hell
User Info...
It seems we agree on the fundamentals of the need for a social services system and that people who truly need it should have access to it.
Therefore it seems you are arguing for the sake of arguing.
Unless you truly do think DAJ is being wronged and people who are able to pull their own weight should be coddled and supported just because they don't feel like working. If that's the case, then we can argue all day and night.
Businesses are generally in business to make a profit. That is capitalism in action. If all the businesses were to be removed from downtown, there wouldn't be much of a downtown.
Yes, taxes go towards upkeep of public utilities, transit and whatnot. These services would be there regardless of business being present or not. These services are in all areas outside of the City Of Victoria. Not sure why you brought up the services of downtown as it has nothing to do with what I was saying. Perhaps I should have clarified that my referring to capitalism was an example of DAJ's hypocrisy where he completely disagrees with a thing such as capitalism, yet wants to be near it, in the thick of it and enjoy the rewards of it all while blasting it as evil.
My point is that there is no need for tent city to be near downtown. Or if there is a need, I am not seeing it. Do the tenters need to be near the amenities of downtown to buy their living supplies? To pound the pavement to find work? Why does DAJ insist on being near downtown if he despises the way society is and all it stands for. Downtown is the bunghole of everything he hates.
My reference to Christianity was not in response to your Protestant reference. It was a reference to act of giving to a cause even though it is not helping you or it is causing you harm.

"If the flip-side is that people who want to can opt-out of paying for these services, then there's no reason. Of course, that would mean the end of social services completely."

No reason? For what? I don't really get what you're trying to say. If people who don't want to pay into social services don't, then there is no reason for them to do so?
A non-issue. Our tax money is collected by law and distributed as the morons in our government see fit. I don't mind there being a welfare system for people who need it, so long as they are respecting it and not pissing on those of us who are paying for it. *EDIT* In fact, I think the amount of money given to recipients of welfare is demeaning and akin to psychological abuse in how they are expected to stretch very little money over the span of a month in a city that is not cheap to exist in...even if all you do is pay rent and eat poorly twice a day. Especially people with children. Totally irresponsible policies that our government has failed everyone on.
If they piss on the whole system, yet want a free ride I suggest we enact that burning barge idea and ship 'em out to sea. Or they can fuck off to the mountains and walk the talk by living off the land.
In summary, I think there needs to be more housing in Victoria and I don't mind millions of dollars in tax money going towards that. Better cause than bailing out mismanaged corporations, as was brought up earlier. If the housing is there, there should be no reason for tent cities or living in parks.
If an individual is going to scoff at such assistance, go die in the woods and get no sympathy.
That is what I'm getting at. - Sun, 19 Oct 2008 4:55pm Edited: Sun, 19 Oct 2008 5:05pm
Doc
User Info...
"Stereotypically, a Protestant is a hard-working man who through his own efforts, succeeds."

Stereotypically, a Protestant is a non-Catholic or Orthodox Christian. The association of hard work with Protestantism came from French and English Calvinists in the seventeenth and eighteenth centurey who would work literally from sun up to sun down Monday through Saturday, attend church services frist thing Sunday morning and then most would work from after church until sundown. Often this was done just so that their families could survive, success, as I believe you were applying the term, very rarely entered into the equation.

Also, our system is not Socialist, unless compared to the U.S. We here think very highly of our social programs, but if you compare them to any of the EU countries, or any other country with a Socialist system, ours pale in comparison.

~Keeping the world safe from democracy.
Doc - Sun, 19 Oct 2008 9:12pm
BBJones
User Info...
Thanks for this TC, this is pretty much what irks me the most:
"The reason everyone here is so pissed is because we view many of these "campers" as spoiled brats, who feel a sense of entitlement, without the willingness to fulfill any of the corresponding obligations or responsibilities to be part of society."

Evilkeg, yes, not much has changed with this ruling but, back to TC's point above, all that I see has happened is DAJ has moved from one money-losing venture at our expense, to the next.

When is he satisfied? From what I can tell, it will be when anyone can choose to make thier own tarp house, in any greenspace in Downtown Victoria and be allowed to live there permanantly regardless of any social programs in place to help get people off the streets.

He's not fighting for low income houseing.
He's not fighting for shelter beds to be created

He's simply made up a way to live, and wants it to become legal.

Which goes back to my quote on TC above that I think sums it up nicely.

This point is simple:
Everyone wants to live/be close to downtown which is why it usually ends up with the most valuable real estate.

DAJ has no right to force anyone to let him live in that same place for free.

And TC, I'll add an extention to your summary that I think most everyone also agrees on:
If DAJ and co. wanted to set up shop out in the woods, no one here would give a damn. All the power to 'em I say.

Squat and live off the land all you like. Until the owners need it for something, then you can get the hell out and move somewhere else.

Perhaps petition the goverment to dedicate a portion of wilderness to these type of people wishing their own alternative lifestyle. I've no problem with that either and would actively support it as it lets them live they way they want, and for me to live the way I want.

But I can see why they will never pursue that.

There is no free money in the woods.
There is no free food in the woods.
There are no drug suppliers in woods.
There are no people with money, housing and supplies to leach off in the woods.

Most importantly, living off the land means working for a living just like the rest of us. Can't have that obviously... - Mon, 20 Oct 2008 10:30am Edited: Mon, 20 Oct 2008 10:33am
Aidan Logins
User Info...
I'm going way back into this thread here for this comment. But I just have to say that the homeless can indeed get their meth in Sooke.

"There are no drug suppliers in woods."

they have that in the woods out here too. :) - Mon, 20 Oct 2008 5:03pm Edited: Mon, 20 Oct 2008 5:06pm
BBJones
User Info...
Game over, DAJ.

Read the paper today?

"Fallout from a controversial court decision allowing homeless people to camp overnight in parks includes about 40 more provincially-funded shelter beds -- potentially providing enough beds for anyone who wants one."

http://www.canada.com/victoriatimescolonist/news/story.html?id=53e120e2-3176-4ade-b4a8-839080bb7d43

You know what that means don't you? That the police can now force you to take down any temporary shelter at any time.

Hope you enjoyed "Tent Village" while it lasted.

Have fun sleeping on a mat in a gymnasium. - Tue, 21 Oct 2008 7:56am Edited: Tue, 21 Oct 2008 7:58am
Zedius
User Info...
Wait a minute... so when the provincial government says they put aside funding for 40 more shelter beds, it really means they put aside funding for 40 more mats in the basement of St. John the Divine? What is that, like $400? - Tue, 21 Oct 2008 8:54am
Jl
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if i were that hard up; a mat in a warm basement would do me just fine. - Tue, 21 Oct 2008 9:02am
Sati
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You guys only needed 40 more beds and your homelessness issue is fixed?

Damn, I passed that many people sleeping in doorways along the Drive on my way in to work this morning. - Tue, 21 Oct 2008 9:11am
Zedius
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I'm pretty sure we need more than 40, Sati, but that's another thing. I'm pretty sure we've got the same homeless problem as you. If Victoria gets more resources, I don't see why Vancouver's population wouldn't want to take advantage of them or vica-versa.

(Not trying to say the severity is the same, mind you.) - Tue, 21 Oct 2008 10:36am
canon.docre
User Info...
Those places are fucked. I ran into these young girls who were in Calgary on the street that I knew from going to shows in Victoria, they stayed at one of those shelters for one night on a floor where everyone sleeps in the same room because the beds were all taken up, and men basically hovered over them the whole time and they had to stay awake the entire night to watch out for themselves. They would have been better off finding somewhere outside to stay, My girlfriend and I let them stay at our place until they were on their way. - Tue, 21 Oct 2008 12:20pm
DAJ
User Info...
Press Release For 'Right to Sleep' Charter Ruling (David Arthur Johnston)

-

Good day and patience be with us all.

It is phenomenal, what is happening here in Victoria and soon the rest of Canada and the Commonwealth. Essentially, non-property holders have been given the right to exist and property holders are freaking. A BC Supreme Court ruling on the Constitutionality of municipal Bylaws that prohibit sleeping (in a temporary abodes in crappy weather) in public spaces has just come down. The crux of it is, quoting the presiding judge, the Honourable Madam Justice Ross, "In these circumstances I have concluded that the course that is most appropriate is to grant a declaration that the Bylaws are of no force and effect insofar as they apply to prevent homeless people from erecting temporary shelter." Leaving the municipality the responsibility of guiding away the temporary abodes to places more fit for the job than any public access land that might not be so (from deep bush to the lawn in front of city hall). In the case of Victoria, however, the city's response was the inception of a new bylaw restricting temporary abodes between 7:00 AM and 9:00PM, during the day when even you can't sleep at any shelters. The city is aware that it is unconstitutional, it is only a matter of time before they are held accountable and they realize they can restrict all tents from parks if they did have a place for them to go (these places, of course, lest they turn into internment camps, will have provisions for growth and mayhaps even the barest of amenities).

The dramatic concern and biggest excuse in resenting tent-cities is the crime it attracts. No doubt, along with the soon to be massive influx of 'ordinary Joes and Janes', the most undisciplined of society will be attracted to the notion of having their own space at tent-cities... so sometimes it becomes the responsibility of the individual accepting notions of maturity, standing and not putting up with meanness, period. People will find tent-cities have lives of their own and adjust just as efficiency dictates.

With that, I would suggest that the 'Crown' will never acknowledge total financial collapse and subsequently is not preparing for it, beyond resorting to psychotic behaviour to live as long as it can (A.K.A. Tent-cities are not in the 'management' plans of the rulers).

So, with all sacredness, patience be with us all.

Presume innocence of each piece of life, at least until you know better, and the joy of a loving community will be yours.

cheers and peace,

David Arthur Johnston

Victoria, BC, Canada

Hatrackman@Gmail.com

Home page- http://www.angelfire.com/apes/hatrackman

Journal of the Occupation of St. Ann's Academy (Victoria, BC, Canada)- http://www.angelfire.com/apes/hatrackman/welcome.htm

Crimes of Necessity- http://www.loveandfearlessness.com (from filmmaker Andrew Ainsley. Very comprehensive.) - Tue, 21 Oct 2008 12:43pm
trevor corey
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get a haircut - Tue, 21 Oct 2008 12:54pm
Doc
User Info...
First, no ruling in any court in Canada, even the Supreme Court of Canada, is applicable anywhere else in the Commonwealth. All of the countries therein are independant, sovereign countries with their own judiciary. Second, even if the city were to find somewhere else for your tent-city to go that wasn't pulic access land, though I doubt that shit will happen, there is no way that the CRD is going to PAY to provide ammennities to a bunch of lay abouts with no drive or desire to work and become contributing members of society. Sorry Bub, but toilets and running water are instruments of the establishment and if you want 'em, you gotta earn 'em.

~Keeping the world safe from democracy (and DAJ).
Doc - Tue, 21 Oct 2008 12:58pm Edited: Tue, 21 Oct 2008 12:59pm
Zedius
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Temporary x a billion! - Tue, 21 Oct 2008 1:01pm
Sati
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grrr, I've been trying get a sec to post this all day!:
Yeah Zedius, I know. I was being sarcastic because of the inference that 40 even made a dent.
And I exaggerated - I probably saw about a dozen out there this particular morning. All men, which is a relief.

I have to say I feel a lot more educated. People have brought up so many really good points here. Not the least of which is why people have been so resistant to DAJ's view of things. It was good to see it clarified like that since people like to categorize everyone who says anything vaguely provocative. You're either for or against (the homeless pop) is bs.

Its been good to see a complex issue being treated as such on here for a change! Does anyone else feel a little sense of relief? Its been so frustrating. Having people around who can isolate why exactly we're irked and articulate it so well is really helpful. - Tue, 21 Oct 2008 1:03pm
Hearse
User Info...
"Presume innocence of each piece of life, at least until you know better, and the joy of a loving community will be yours."

You know DAJ, I work with a guy who spent some time on the streets of Victoria and he's pretty sure you're a hypocrite when it comes to money and where you get your food.

Reserved table at the soup kitchen? - Tue, 21 Oct 2008 1:05pm
BBJones
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Hearse, haven't you figured it out yet that all DAJ wants is to be King of his own kingdom?

Does it really take you having to hear it from someone else who "knows" DAJ to determine he's a hypocrite?

We've been pointing that out here for ages.

Nice of you to finally clue in.

Who's next? canon.docre? - Tue, 21 Oct 2008 1:16pm
canon.docre
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Sorry bro I don't see myself jumping on the 'wishing I could murder homeless people' bandwagon. Besides, we're all hypocrites. Its kind of the human condition. - Tue, 21 Oct 2008 1:46pm
Sati
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STOP INSULTING HOMELESS PEOPLE! DAJ and "homeless people" are NOT the same thing! - Tue, 21 Oct 2008 2:26pm
CL
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"STOP INSULTING HOMELESS PEOPLE! DAJ and "homeless people" are NOT the same thing!"

That's an important point. - Tue, 21 Oct 2008 2:53pm
Mofo
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DAJ is having us all; and enjoying every moment thereof.
His little messiah complex is the least of my worries, it's his laziness that strikes me.

As one of the others posted, how is it that DAJ is so articulate; has access to the internet on a seemingly daily basis; is relatively clean in appearance, etc,. etc,. Yet cannot obtain employment?

Oh, I'm sorry bleeding hearts, maybe if I just didn't feel like working anymore you'd be fine with paying my way?

I have worked extensively with people who are genuinely homeless and have mental health/addiction issues. I TAKE NO issue with doing something to aid them. Where I draw a line is the likes of DAJ: a self proclaimed "freedom fighter" who has all of the necessary wit and physical ability to work like I or anyone else of us does!

I believe that homelessness does not = lazy.
However, DAJ is sure as fuck a poster boy for the stereotype. DAJ Wants YOU!!!! *any graphic arts majors here? that would make a wicked pic to post on the front lawns of the public park that MY TAX dollars paid for and his arrogance and raw opportunism was afforded the right to shit on...literally!

And don't even get me started about this bitching about getting up at 7AM shit.... - Wed, 22 Oct 2008 1:05am
J. Peatman
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That's right DAJ is not homeless. In fact, he has hid his spacecraft underground somewhere and is now -patiently- preying upon members of the Crown: - Wed, 22 Oct 2008 11:14am
J. Peatman
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DAJ is a PREDATOR!! - Wed, 22 Oct 2008 11:15am
Mofo
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Rob Reid as ALIEN!
*I know my paint skills suck, but hey, it gets the point accross...sorta, kinda. - Wed, 22 Oct 2008 1:19pm
Mike
User Info...
"STOP INSULTING HOMELESS PEOPLE! DAJ and "homeless people" are NOT the same thing"

Exactly. Take a look in the US where tent cities are popping up everywhere ( youtube it ) and alot of these are the working class who got fucked by the mortgage dilemna. They camp out and get up and go to work. That homeless guy can camp in my yard, on my boulevard and in my park.

There are also the afflicted, those that never could care for themselves. They are the unfortunate by product of Gordon Campbells cuts to the system that cares for those who cannot care for themselves. These people I do not have a problem with.

DAJ is a strapping younger man. He is likely capable of carrying large loads and swinging a hammer, or making sandwich and packing a bag. He can mow a lawn and he can rake leaves.

Those that are capable of fending for themselves, and working, I dont care what they do, legit, illegit, whatever, they are the ones I do not care for. There is no job shortages in Victoria. KFC cant even use their drive thru because they need employees so badly, and they are starting at $11 hr plus benefits. Thats just an example. There is so much work out there right now, and these people that take advantage of the system ( or want to ) are screwing it up for those that truly have come upon hard times and need a welfare cheque or two and a bed for a few weeks till thye get on there feet. - Wed, 22 Oct 2008 2:51pm
DAJ
User Info...
St. Ann's update- Tuesday, Oct. 28th, 2008: seeking gear and wisdom

-

Good morning all.

As far as I can see right now- waiting to see our lawyers response on the legality of the 7:00 AM restriction. I have been told that a city councillor has rescinded her vote on the 7:00 AM rule and that mayhaps it might not be official while that gets figured out... meaning tents could go up legally now... I'll find out for sure before I act.

There is the big fancy meeting with our lawyers on THURSDAY, OCTOBER 30TH from 4:00 PM to 6:00 PM at a place called ARTS CONNECTION located at 2740 Quadra (near Hillside). I imagine there will be representatives from the police, city and the Chamber of Commerce. There is also a call for all of the municipal electoral candidates to be there as well. The idea is to make clear where all the legalities of the shelter thing are. Was hoping that if any would have tent/tarp and rope to bring it to this meeting as there is a chance the tent-city will go back up in earnest Thursday night.

Where the tent-city will go is the next question. Right now I'm thinking back where it was. Yes, I know that that spot has been designated 'ecologically sensitive', though most park area has been designated that way (I think in the last couple years). The gravel soccer field is too close to the ocean and doesn't have much wind blockage. Cridge is bare and too small. Elise is bare and too small. Mayhaps with city cooperation both could be utilized... St. Ann's is ideal, yet the recent Supreme Court ruling was specific to municipal property (St. Ann's is 'owned' by the Provincial Capital Commission). Essentially, the Mayor's Grove is the best area I can think of. Maybe we could get someone to point out where, specifically, the sensitive plants are.

And lastly, THIS IS NOT ABOUT THE ISSUE OF 'HOMELESSNESS'. THIS IS ABOUT HOW WE, AS A COMMUNITY, FACE THE HARDEST FUTURE WE COULD POSSIBLY IMAGINE. The governments and corporations will not admit to economic failure and will continue attempt to 'manage' the crisis while attempting to save the economy- the whole while those without conventional resources will be labeled 'useless' and be targets of psychotic behaviour. This is not about protecting our children from dark nightmares of crack and heroin (who has been giving out 1000s of needles every month?). The powers that be do not care so much about people as they do with maintaining their power base. That power base is dealt a mortal blow when people find they can live for free. So, do we face the future as pragmatic grown-up humans blessed with divine industriousness or do we leave the notions of survival to the corporations and turn the other way when we see the brutalization of 'useless eaters'?

We are going to run out of food and people are whining about crack (which is not going to be around forever, either). Do we really need soccer fields for the apocalypse?

anyhoo, love you all. Have no doubt that everything is perfectly on schedule and that even the devil cannot escape fate... it will do as it must, as we all will. Patience be with us.

David Arthur Johnston

Victoria, BC, Canada

Hatrackman@Gmail.com

Home page- http://www.angelfire.com/apes/hatrackman

Journal of the Occupation of St. Ann's Academy (Victoria, BC, Canada)- http://www.angelfire.com/apes/hatrackman/welcome.htm

Crimes of Necessity- http://www.loveandfearlessness.com (from filmmaker Andrew Ainsley. Very comprehensive.) - Tue, 28 Oct 2008 10:02am
Mike
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hey DAJ check out this link man, I think it will really help you in your quest for betterment.

http://www.jobbank.gc.ca/Intro_en.aspx - Tue, 28 Oct 2008 10:41am
sue
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Holy fuck dude, I know that you always avoid this but,

To quote, "That power base is dealt a mortal blow when people find they can live for free"

YOU are not living for free. Nothing you have was free, it was bought and paid for by someone else. Free to you yes, but only at the expense of someone else. The "free" food you eat, the 'free' shelter you tarp up. The 'free' shoes you wear to keep your feet warm and dry. Hell, the freakin' trees in Mayors Grove aren't native to that spot someone bought them!

People probably wouldn't have such a problem with you if you weren't such a hypocryte (sp?). - Tue, 28 Oct 2008 9:27pm Edited: Tue, 28 Oct 2008 9:28pm
Jl
User Info...
"And lastly, THIS IS NOT ABOUT THE ISSUE OF 'HOMELESSNESS'. THIS IS ABOUT HOW WE, AS A COMMUNITY, FACE THE HARDEST FUTURE WE COULD POSSIBLY IMAGINE."

great point. Bring that one up in your big "fancy" lawyer meeting, Im sure that would go over VERY well.
As for us(me included) are facing 'the hardest future we could possibly imagine', go blow that steam up someones ass that actually believes in you. And quit telling people this country is going down hill; just because you have to move your shit and start your day at 7am, LIKE A NORMAL PERSON, doesn't mean the world is coming to a halt. Open your eyes you selfish hypocrite, the city is taking YOUR problem as being a homeless problem; so to say that this fight is not for the homeless and only to better YOUR situation is completely ignorant and selfish. Go home to your parents; they miss you. - Wed, 29 Oct 2008 1:44pm
trevor corey
User Info...
""""Do we really need soccer fields for the apocalypse?""""

Hells yes! Not to mention Hockey arenas and motorSpeedways. If this is the apocalypse, what would you call ww2, ww1, bubonic plague, ice age, etc? This is the best time in human history to be alive, well, alive in a place like Canada anyways. Life is great, Daj, too bad for you that you live in a state of mind so full of negativity. Personally, I would be dead right now if I lived in any other time in human history.

We give ol Daj way to much attention. - Wed, 29 Oct 2008 2:24pm
trevor corey
User Info...
......not to mention, ALL THE PORN AND POKER!!!!! Can you even believe how lucky we are to live in a time with so much free porn?

Poor Daj. Missing out on all the good times.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tcjyC8_8lXc - Wed, 29 Oct 2008 2:58pm Edited: Wed, 29 Oct 2008 3:09pm
JDL
User Info...
Y'know you're right trev.; we do give ol' daj too much attention. But this being the ONLY messageboard I frequent(cuz i have a life) I like posting back at things that amuze me. Daj amuses me. His life mantra, beliefs, etc... The whole wanting everything for nothing, believing shelters are internment camps. All amusing and somtimes people like that need a cold dose of reality(not saying posting here is a cold dose; but at least a 7am wake up call is close enough) - Wed, 29 Oct 2008 3:57pm
Hearse
User Info...
Mr. Hell: Unless you truly do think DAJ is being wronged and people who are able to pull their own weight should be coddled and supported just because they don't feel like working.

I think he has more in common with Jim Jones than with me. We might argue about what "pull their own weight" means, though...

... some other time perhaps. - Wed, 29 Oct 2008 5:19pm
Mr. Hell
User Info...
No time like the present.
Pull your own weight = you are able to work to make money to support yourself.
That's what it means to me.
I just don't think people who don't "feel" like working for weak reasons should be afforded money that is there for people who absolutely cannot go out and hold down a job for whatever reason.
Doesn't seem like a far fetched idea, really.
Simple.
Don't want to be a part of society? Then leave society. - Wed, 29 Oct 2008 5:28pm
Mike
User Info...
lots of succesful communes in the backwoods of BC. - Wed, 29 Oct 2008 7:15pm
Bounce
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Just had to share that when I pulled out of my driveway this morning I went two feet too far on the sidewalk without looking left....and almost hit DAJ...sorry about that...lol... - Thu, 30 Oct 2008 8:57am
Jl
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2 feet too short; and i wouldn't apologize :P - Thu, 30 Oct 2008 2:09pm
Bounce
User Info...
lol... - Thu, 30 Oct 2008 3:29pm
Aidan Logins
User Info...
"lots of succesful communes in the backwoods of BC."
they don't have free shit though :( DAJ just wants free shit. - Thu, 30 Oct 2008 4:24pm
trevor corey
User Info...
Our Tax System Explained: Bar Stool Economics

Suppose that every day, ten men go out for beer and the bill for all ten comes to $100.
If they paid their bill the way we pay our taxes, it would go something like this:

The first four men (the poorest) would pay nothing.
The fifth would pay $1.
The sixth would pay $3.
The seventh would pay $7.
The eighth would pay $12.
The ninth would pay $18.
The tenth man (the richest) would pay $59.

So, that's what they decided to do.
The ten men drank in the bar every day and seemed quite happy with the arrangement, until one day, the owner threw them a curve. 'Since you are all such good customers,' he said, 'I'm going to reduce the cost of your daily beer by $20.'
Drinks for the ten now cost just $80.
The group still wanted to pay their bill the way we pay our taxes so the first four men were unaffected. They would still drink for free.
But what about the other six men - the paying customers?
How could they divide the $20 windfall so that everyone would get his 'fair share?'
They realized that $20 divided by six is $3.33. But if they subtracted that from everybody's share, then the fifth man and the sixth man would each end up being paid to drink his beer.
So, the bar owner suggested that it would be fair to reduce each man's bill by roughly the same amount, and he proceeded to work out the amounts each should pay.

And so:
The fifth man, like the first four, now paid nothing (100% savings).
The sixth now paid $2 instead of $3 (33%savings).
The seventh now pay $5 instead of $7 (28%savings).
The eighth now paid $9 instead of $12 (25% savings).
The ninth now paid $14 instead of $18 (22% savings).
The tenth now paid $49 instead of $59 (16% savings).

Each of the six was better off than before. And the first four continued to drink for free. But once outside the restaurant, the men began to compare their savings.
'I only got a dollar out of the $20,'declared the sixth man. He pointed to the tenth man,' but he got $10!'
'Yeah, that's right,' exclaimed the fifth man. 'I only saved a dollar, too.
It's unfair that he got ten times more than I got' 'That's true!!' shouted the seventh man.
'Why should he get $10 back when I got only two? The wealthy get all the breaks!'
'Wait a minute,' yelled the first four men in unison. 'We didn't get anything at all. The system exploits the poor!'
The nine men surrounded the tenth and beat him up.
The next night the tenth man didn't show up for drinks so the nine sat down and had beers without him. But when it came time to pay the bill, they discovered something important. They didn't have enough money between all of them for even half of the bill!

And that, ladies and gentlemen, journalists and college professors, is how our tax system works.
The people who pay the highest taxes get the most benefit from a tax reduction. Tax them too much, attack them for being wealthy, and they just may not show up anymore. In fact, they might start drinking overseas where the atmosphere is somewhat friendlier.

David R. Kamerschen, Ph.D.
Professor of Economics
University of Georgia

For those who understand, no explanation is needed.
For those who do not understand, no explanation is possible. - Tue, 4 Nov 2008 4:57pm
canon.docre
User Info...
a lot of people make money by exploiting others. I wouldn't call that noble, even if you are 'pulling your own weight.' - Tue, 4 Nov 2008 5:29pm
JDL
User Info...
"a lot of people make money by exploiting others. I wouldn't call that noble, even if you are 'pulling your own weight."

so how do you suggest we earn a living then? apparently someone's found a money tree? - Wed, 5 Nov 2008 11:55am
canon.docre
User Info...
its possible to get by without fucking people over. use your brain. - Wed, 5 Nov 2008 1:05pm
Chopper
User Info...
There isn't a single industry on this planet that doesn't put profits over people. None. So no canon.docre, it's not possible to work without someone at some point in the chain getting 'fucked over'. Take your own advice and use your grey matter in your skull as more than a windbreak between your ears. - Wed, 5 Nov 2008 1:28pm
JDL
User Info...
"its possible to get by without fucking people over. use your brain"

like how? Im not sharing... so whats the other option? ....? - Wed, 5 Nov 2008 2:43pm

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